What does Hong Kong’s long-simmering dispute with Beijing ultimately boil down to? And what does the showdown between protestors and Hong Kong’s leaders mean for the city’s future?
The people of Hong Kong have taken to the streets in the largest protests the city has ever seen. A controversial extradition treaty sparked demonstrations that have lasted for weeks, but now that the bill has been withdrawn, what's keeping protesters on the streets? What does Hong Kong’s long-simmering dispute with Beijing boil down to? And what does the showdown between protestors and Hong Kong’s leaders mean for the city’s future? Jen talks to CNN's Kristie Lu Stout to get a sense of how things look on the ground.
Jen Psaki: 00:00:00 I'm Jen Psaki. Welcome to the World Unpacked. We break down the most important global issues with experts, journalists and policymakers. We ask the questions you want answers to, in order to get smart on foreign policy.
News Clip: 00:00:17 All of Hong Kong will revert to China.
News Clip: 00:00:19 Now, Hong Kong people are to run Hong Kong.
News Clip: 00:00:23 These are fundamental freedoms and they must continue.
News Clip: 00:00:27 And Hong Kong is in an odd situation. It's a limited democracy inside a communist country.
Jen Psaki: 00:00:34 The people of Hong Kong have brandished their umbrellas and taken to the streets again. The city's latest attempt to guard its unique way of life from the encroachments of the Chinese government have produced some of the most highly attended protests ever witnessed. What does Hong Kong's long simmering dispute with Beijing ultimately boil down to? And what does the showdown between protesters and Hong Kong's leaders mean for the city's future? To give us a sense of how things look on the ground in Hong Kong, I'm joined by Kristie Lu Stout. Kristie is an anchor and correspondent for CNN based in Hong Kong. Kristie, thanks for joining me and welcome to the show.
Kristie Lu Stout: 00:01:07 Thank you so much. Great to be here.
Jen Psaki: 00:01:08 I want to start with some history because many of our listeners know something's happening in Hong Kong, but they don't know quite what it's all about. So Hong Kong spent a century as a British colony before returning to Chinese rule in 1997. What was the feeling at that time about the change in rule? What was the expectation and why did it happen?
Kristie Lu Stout: 00:01:29 Yeah. Well, 1997, that was the handover. That was when it was agreed upon for Hong Kong to return to mainland China. There was a lot of fear and uncertainty at that time. Property market turmoil, a lot of people making sure that they were lining up additional country passports to places like Canada and the UK. But since then, you know, there has been this ongoing test over this governing principle that has governed Hong Kong since then. This this term of a phrase that you keep hearing, one country, two systems where, you know, bizarrely, you have this place, Hong Kong, that is simultaneously part of China, but also not China at the same time. You know, it's it's a special administrative region of Hong Kong. And yet here you see rights and freedoms that people can express here in Hong Kong that are not seen in the mainland. In fact, in just when I tell you right now, I'm in the control room of our Hong Kong studio here at CNN, And I'm looking at this live feed of this event happening right now in the central business district of Hong Kong. Additional protests happening at this moment. And what's really interesting is, as you've been following this story, there's been messaging about for the chief executive to stand down or for the extradition bill to be withdrawn. And now we're going to get into the nitty gritty of that in just a moment. But the signs are changing. I'm looking at a man holding a sign saying "Free Hong Kong," and "Democracy Now". And it's quite remarkable to see this evolution in messaging about this protest. And this all goes into just the identity of Hong Kong and what the people of Hong Kong want Hong Kong to be.
Jen Psaki: 00:03:02 And that's so interesting. And thank you for sharing that with us, especially as you're looking out your window, as you said. So, it sounds like from what you're saying, though, wouldn't you wouldn't have expected that just a couple of years ago, or even months ago. So how has kind of the... and I know we'll get into the protests in a little in a little bit, but how has the kind of relationship between Hong Kong and mainland China changed over the last couple of years, both at the government level and among people?
Kristie Lu Stout: 00:03:29 Yeah. Well, over the years, we've seen people in Hong Kong actively exercising their rights, you know, that they have, being a semiautonomous part of China. You know, with regular protests, you know, for example, there was that protest that happened...well, it happens every year on July 1 on the anniversary of the handover. There's also that protest that took place in 2012 when we saw students and additional Hong Kongers successfully challenging this proposed introduction of a patriotic education in the local curriculum. They they successfully forced the government's hand, but then things started to change around 2014. You know, we all know what happened with the pro-democracy umbrella movement protests -- generated a lot of attention, did not generate democracy. And since then, we have seen what many critics here in Hong Kong say is this constant erosion of Hong Kong autonomy. You know, with the kidnappings of Hong Kong booksellers by mainland Chinese agents, there was an abduction of a Chinese tycoon at the Four Seasons Hotel here in Hong Kong. The denial of a visa for Victor Mallet, the prominent Financial Times journalist, and all this being cited as examples of Hong Kong's autonomy that is enshrined in the basic law just being eroded before the time when Hong Kong is supposed to be fully handed over to China, which is 2047.
Jen Psaki: 00:04:47 I wanted to ask you about the chief executive, Carrie Lam, and her relationship with mainland China and the perception of her. Because if you're listening to kind of coverage of this and and anchors like yourself talking about it, you wanted to kind of know more about her. What's her deal? You know, who is she? Whose side is she on? and what's the perception of her there?
Kristie Lu Stout: 00:05:08 I had the opportunity to interview her a couple of years ago, just after she was elected or critics would say selected to be called the first female chief executive of Hong Kong. That happened in 2017 because there is no universal suffrage in Hong Kong. She was chosen by a small election committee dominated by pro Beijing interests. In fact, many protesters like to point out in the city of 7 million people, she was selected by seven hundred and seventy seven people.
Jen Psaki: 00:05:34 Ooph, that's a stunning number.
Kristie Lu Stout: 00:05:38 Yeah, it's a lot of sevens in there and not necessarily number that really represents that she has the people behind her. And her job is a tough one because she has to serve two masters, she has to serve Beijing and the people of Hong Kong. And when I sat down with her, I asked her that. Is that tough? You know how, how are you going to do that? And she said, it's not tough, it's unique. And I also asked her, do you consider yourself to be a Hong Konger? It seems like a simple question, but actually it's a very substantial one. A lot of people here in Hong Kong would say that they are Hong Kongers first. They're not Chinese. They're Hong Kongers. And they're trying; They're asserting their autonomy. They're asserting their identity being separate and distinct from mainland China. So when I asked her that question, you know, Carrie Lam, do you consider yourself as a Hong Konger first? She said, you know, it's not a matter of first or second. I'm a Hong Kong person. I'm a Chinese person, and I want to contribute to Hong Kong. And I think that really characterizes Carrie Lam. You know who she is and the very, very difficult position that she is put into being chief executive of Hong Kong.
Jen Psaki: 00:06:45 When we come back, we'll take a look at the current protests.
News Clip: 00:06:54 Hong Kong's just had one of its biggest ever protests in history.
News Clip: 00:07:01 The extradition bill has created new tensions and fueled anger among pro-democracy politicians.
News Clip: 00:07:07 "...afraid; people are also angry." It's about the status of Hong Kong and the power China has over it.
Jen Psaki: 00:07:14 The latest protests were sparked by a government proposal to amend Hong Kong's extradition treaty, rather than seeing it as a dry piece of legally. As many Hong Kong's think this proposal gravely threatens their freedom and safety. Why is that? And what changes were involved or proposed, I should say.
Kristie Lu Stout: 00:07:32 This controversial piece of legislation is the extradition bill. It would allow the extradition of suspected criminals to a number of additional jurisdictions, including mainland China. The Hong Kong government -- their line is they say that this is needed. This is necessary to plug this legal loophole. And they keep pointing to this murder case, this really grisly murder case, that took place in Taiwan, where you have a 20 year old Hong Kong woman, allegedly killed by her boyfriend while on holiday. Now, under the current law, he cannot be sent to Taiwan to face justice. But critics say that they're not buying that. They're afraid that this new law would be abused; because they're afraid of the Chinese legal system, they're afraid that China would use it to extradite, you know, political dissidents or NGO workers or critics of Beijing to mainland China. And once they're there, once they're extradited, they wouldn't get a fair trial.
Jen Psaki: 00:08:28 And, you know, you mentioned a little bit earlier the 2014 protests and the reaction at the time to a kind of another proposal, which was to prescreen candidates for Hong Kong's top post. Have you seen, just watching this and covering it as closely as you are -- Are there differences? Are there similarities? Are there. Are there tactics or things that the protesters have learned from 2014?
Kristie Lu Stout: 00:08:53 You know, that's an absolutely astute question on multiple levels. And one is, I think the umbrella movement has set the stage for where we are today. You know, one could argue that, you know, on one hand, the umbrella movement failed to deliver universal suffrage, but on the other hand, it created a new political party. It radicalized a new generation. In fact, the new generation protesters who are really bold, some of them even asking for not just greater democracy or democracy as promised in the basic law, but asking for independence. Now, talking about tactics, we have seen very, very interesting evolution in tactics. To separate out the different crowds that we've seen, videos of reports of the coverage of the Hong Kong protests, you know, there is the June 9th protest and then one week later, the other Sunday protests where you see, according to organizers, millions of people out and about, you know, just saying that they want Carrie Lam to stand down, saying that they want this extradition bill withdrawn. That basically cuts across the board in terms of demographics. You know, you see you see senior citizens, you see families with young children, you see students. You see even people from the business sector going out there. There was widespread opposition. But when you look at the core protest movement, these are the young people that you see, you know, in photographs or video, wearing the black T-shirts, wearing the masks. This is the more radicalized younger generation. And they have new tactics. And, you know, for example, this is a leaderless movement, you know, quite unlike the umbrella movement in 2014 where you had figures like Joshua Wong and Nathan Law -- there are no protest leaders. And some people believe that that's intentional because after the umbrella movement protest, they know authorities quickly arrested that the leaders of that movement. Also the protesters are much more anonymous this time. They're wearing masks, you know, not only to, you know, you know, in fear of, let's say, pepper spray being used or what have you; but to actively hide their identities. You know, these protesters have been using pay as you go metro cards instead of the octopus smart cards. They're using more secure messaging apps. So that is a very, very noticeable change. Also, they're more organized.There were -- posters and images of that that show the hand gestures, that decode the hand gestures that the protesters were seen using, hand gestures like sign language to indicate gas mask or zip ties or asthma puffer. And it's remarkable to see that because, again, this is a leaderless movement.
Jen Psaki: 00:11:32 And you mentioned that you were looking out your window and these protests were ongoing. Where did they kind of go from here? Is the momentum, you know, supporting these protests just continuing? or what are what should we be looking for in them?
Kristie Lu Stout: 00:11:46 Well, to clarify, I'm in our studio and I'm looking at a live video of a live video.
Jen Psaki: 00:11:50 Sorry, you're not actually looking out the it.
Kristie Lu Stout: 00:11:53 No, but it is a virtual window into what's happening a couple of districts away. And, you know, it's -- They are trying to keep up the momentum, especially ahead of July 1, which is traditionally a big protest day, it's the anniversary of the handover. But what we've seen today is they are pegging their protest to the upcoming G-20 summit in Osaka. Earlier today we saw, you know, basically about a thousand or so protesters going from consulate to consulate with this with letters to give to leaders of these diplomatic missions asking for their support to withdraw the extradition bill. So they were going from the U.S. consulate to the South Korean consulate to the Japanese, went to the EU diplomatic mission. It's a very bold gesture because this comes a couple of days after the Chinese foreign ministry basically said China will not allow Hong Kong to be discussed at the upcoming G-20 summit. So Hong Kong protesters are capitalizing on this big international event to say, you know what? We're going to force this as a point of discussion. This is, as you know, following very closely something that the U.S. secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, has said, that human rights will be discussed when Trump and Xi Jinping, have this opportunity to sit down. But, you know, the protesters are being really nimble. They're being creative. They're trying to peg their protest to these to this major international event to just keep the momentum up and to keep the pressure up on the government.
Jen Psaki: 00:13:19 And what do you think it will feel satisfying to them? I mean, having sat in on a lot of these diplomatic meetings, oftentimes human rights and issues like this come up at the very end of a meeting. Right. They come up so that, you know, a country like the United States or others can say, oh, we did raise it, but will that satisfy them? And what impact would that even have on the Chinese, in your view?
Kristie Lu Stout: 00:13:43 Yeah, I think I mean, right now, what would satisfy the protesters is something that only Carrie Lam could deliver at the moment. You know, they want the bill not to be indefinitely suspended. They want it withdrawn. They want Carrie Lam to step down. And also, this is interesting -- The longer that Carrie Lam has been sort of just waffling on the issue or just not providing a meaningful apology, etc., the list of demands is getting longer as well. So in addition to asking for the bill's withdrawal and for Carrie Lam to step down, they also want an investigation of police brutality against protesters because of those scenes that played out on June the 12th. They want a re characterization of police action from a quote unquote "riot" to a protest. They want the release of arrested protesters. And we're looking at these signs that these protesters are holding out and around the streets of Hong Kong this evening saying "free Hong Kong", "democracy now" -- I mean, it appears that they're asking for democracy as well, that the universal suffrage debate that came up during the umbrella movement is now back in the mix as well. Their list of demands has gotten much, much longer.
Jen Psaki: 00:14:53 So it's moved much beyond the extradition treaty, which has obviously received quite a bit of attention and coverage. But it's bigger than that, it sounds like.
Kristie Lu Stout: 00:15:02 Absolutely. It's become something much, much bigger than that.
Jen Psaki: 00:15:05 And so do you. I mean, Carrie Lam, why wouldn't she just, you know, get rid of the extradition treaty? That won't satisfy them entirely, as you've said. But is it is there a possibility she'll bring it back? Is that why?
Kristie Lu Stout: 00:15:18 You know, it's it's it's interesting because the protesters -- it could be said that the protesters have already scored a major victory. You know, when they announce that the extradition bill was suspended indefinitely, that was seen as a win. And I spoke to one pro Beijing, Hong Kong lawmaker who's named Tommy Cheung, who told me that, look -- accept it. The results is equivalent to the withdrawal of the bill. But protesters, as you've seen these these protesters continue. They're not seeing it that way at all. You know, there is even pressure, among other pro Beijing lawmakers I've spoken to in Hong Kong, they're saying that Carrie Lam should just go ahead and withdraw the bill just to defuse the situation. One pro-establishment figure told me that Carrie Lam can't step down. You know, she has you know, Beijing has her back. They don't want her to step down; that would reopen the entire universal suffrage debate, et cetera, et cetera. But the bill can be withdrawn to diffuse the situation, but it hasn't. And one wonders why.
Jen Psaki: 00:16:21 After the break, we're going to look ahead to the future of Hong Kong and the role of China.
News Clip: 00:16:32 We don't want Hong Kong to become just another Chinese city.
News Clip: 00:16:35 ...concerns the future of the Hong Kong, but also reflects on China's future.
News Clip: 00:16:41 But there's still time to change things. The future is still in our hands.
Jen Psaki: 00:16:47 Chinese President Xi Jinping has billed control over all the territories Beijing claims, including, of course, Hong Kong and Taiwan, as a key test of his ability to rule a strong nationalist China. What is his ultimate goal for this relationship?
Kristie Lu Stout: 00:17:02 It's, you know, back in 2017, that was the 20th anniversary of the Hong Kong handover. And that was also the moment with Xi Jinping finally made his first visit to the territories Chinese president. So all the journalists here were hanging onto his every word when he gave his prepared remarks. And he said, you know, as expected, Hong Kong, you know, he's a backer of Hong Kong. "Hong Kong is in my heart." He also said, you know, "I would ensure Beijing would ensure, you know, one country, two systems will continue with stability," right? You know, very safe words, expected words. But one wonders, what is he thinking now, especially in light of these protests? You know, we know that it's a very sensitive point. You know, as we discussed earlier, you have a top Chinese official saying Beijing is not going to allow Hong Kong to be brought up at the G-20 summit, even though Secretary Pompeo said it should be up for discussion. One pro establishment figure here in Hong Kong said that there is no doubt -- I asked her is, you know, how is Beijing viewing this right now? Is Beijing a bit upset with Carrie Lam? Is Beijing a bit upset about situation here? And she said there was no doubt Beijing is upset because of one particular reason -- And that reason is Taiwan. Because in Taiwan, this is interesting, because in Taiwan, the Hong Kong extradition bill is seen as a warning against 'one country, two systems;' that 'one country, two systems,'and this model does not work. And this is a model that Beijing was hoping to use to entice Taiwan back into the fold.
Jen Psaki: 00:18:39 It's interesting. How does -- you know, I want to ask you... We've talked a bit about Carrie Lam, but just as we're looking ahead -- how does she manage this relationship moving forward? And what is her ultimate goal?
Kristie Lu Stout: 00:18:50 She needs to serve out her term. You know, the term of the office of chief executive is five years with a maximum of two consecutive terms. She came in office in 2017, so her term would be up in 2021. You know, Beijing has said that they back her even in light of these extradition protests; they say that they have her back. You know, amid this ongoing protest action, etc. And, you know, Beijing made no doubt, you know, that it believes in her loyalty, but there probably doubts about how effective she is for Hong Kong. One political analyst I spoke to said that she could serve out the rest of her term as almost like a lame duck chief executive. You know, she would not dare to implement any controversial policies until her replacement would come in. You know, she she has -- she's facing just so many challenges. You know, lack of trust with Beijing; between Hong Kong and Beijing. She's now dealing with a new urban, some people are calling it guerrilla protest movement. And then there are greater problems that Hong Kong has been dealing with in recent years, like a lack of social mobility, economic opportunity for all Hong Kongers. You know, but now, because of this miscalculation with the extradition bill,...it seems at what she can do right now, it's just serve out the rest of her time as this as this political analyst put it, lame duck CE.
Jen Psaki: 00:20:13 And before I let you go, Kristie, I just wanted to ask you -- I mean, Hong Kong's current governing system famously will expire after 50 years in 2047. I realize that's a long time from now, but not that long. So what might post 2047 Hong Kong look like?
Kristie Lu Stout: 00:20:28 You know, 2047 is not that far away, and you're right. And there is a lot of fear. You know, Hong Kongers have for years now, and especially now, have been talking about their exit plan. Is it. Are they going to get that Canadian passport? Are they going to get that British passport? And there's a lot of anxiety. It wasn't a surprise when I saw on Twitter that the Hong Kong Red Cross opened up a psychological support hotline on the back of these extradition bill protests, because people are legitimately fearful and anxious about what is going to happen next to Hong Kong. And Hong Kongers are fearful because they've seen China's human rights, human rights record and what's happened inside mainland China. You know, with what's happened to activists there, the situation in Xinjiang and Tibet as well. And you have to feel for the people of Hong Kong, you know, when you see them out protesting in 30 degree Celsius plus weather, this is very, very hot temperatures -- you know students, families, business people, senior citizens, because they've only tasted one type of life, you know, freedom in Hong Kong. This is the only home that they know. And that's why they protest. Sometimes you talk to the protesters and you say, do you really think you're gonna make a difference? And they say; some of them say, no, I don't think I'm going to make a difference, but I have the ability to fight. So I'm going to fight until the end. And that's why you see them march. You know, they march because this is the only home that they know. And that's that's what's so incredible about this story and these events in Hong Kong.
Jen Psaki: 00:22:06 Well, Kristie Lu Stout, thank you for sharing your expertise and your perspective. And we'll look forward to continuing to follow your coverage of this and many other issues on CNN. I appreciate you taking the time to be on the World Unpacked.
Kristie Lu Stout: 00:22:18 Jen, thank you so much.
Jen Psaki: 00:22:24 Thanks for listening to the World Unpacked, which is produced by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. You can find us on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and to subscribe, you can find us a worldunpacked.com. Don't forget to rate the show, it helps other people find us. Our audio engineer is Tim Martin and our executive producer is Lauren Dueck.