Syrian documentary filmmaker Waad al-Kateab recounts living through the siege of Aleppo and discusses her Oscar-nominated film, For Sama
Waad al-Kateab was a college student in Aleppo when she picked up a video camera to document the Syrian revolution. She kept filming when she met and married her husband and had her first child. She kept filming when the Assad regime laid siege to her city, and when the Russian Air Force started bombing hospitals. Waad's husband, Hamza al-Kateab, became the last doctor running the last hospital in Aleppo.
Waad's footage became the Oscar nominated film, For Sama, which tells the harrowing story of the siege of Aleppo in the form of a letter from mother to daughter. Jen talked with Waad about why she started filming, and why she and her husband chose to stay.
To learn more about Waad al-Kateab's advocacy, visit ActionforSama.com. For more information about the film visit ForSamaFilm.com
Jen Psaki (00:00):
I'm Jen Psaki, welcome to The World Unpacked.
Audio (00:05):
Mama, mama [singing]. [Sound of a bomb striking nearby]
News Audio (00:15):
Aleppo has been hit by airstrikes and when they came they came fast and furious.
Audio (00:30):
[singing. A baby coos and gurgles. There’s the sound of a fighter jet overhead]
Waad al-Kateab (00:34):
And in the country like Syria, where you know that the country is something like, it's like you don't have any home.
Jen Psaki (00:43):
Waad al-Kateab is a Syrian documentary filmmaker whose film, For Sama, is nominated for an Academy Award. When you started filming, you were a university student, and when the Syrian revolution started in 2015, what inspired you at that moment to pick up a camera and start filming?
Waad al-Kateab (01:05):
You know, like I, at that time I was like 21, 20, 21. And the security forces, authorities is just like controlling everything. Everything you want to do in your life, everything you want to say, everything you want to wear, you know, all of this, like it's just come with a list of things which not allowed to do it. And when the Syrian revolution has started, it was like, yeah, what inspired me was the Syrian revolution. We felt for the first time we are, we feeling that we are belong to this country. We are proud that we are Syrian. The first time when I felt that I really want to continue my life here, I don't want to go out. I don't want to just be in another country where I can find freedom and dignity. I can create that in my country.
Jen Psaki (01:53):
You wanted to stay, it was your home.
Waad al-Kateab (01:54):
Exactly. But you know, before the revolution, we've never thought about, when I dream about something, I was always thinking about Germany, France, you know, I've never thought about Syria. But then first time we had that hope that, yeah, we are able to do something here. And when you've seen like thousands of people join this protest, like the security forces were shooting these people in direct way, we were in the heart, you know, of that. And then you feel like even if like 10 people were arrested today, or 50 people next day, will be like more people going out to the streets and that thing just, you know, like give me a lot of strength, and hope, and thoughts about, yeah, this is my responsibility and I should do something in that role. And that's why I started filming, as so many other activists. We were trying to organize the protest as much as we can. So some of us were like filming, some of us like creating the signs. Some of us just like standing in the corner of the street watching the security forces when they will come like to beat us.
Jen Psaki (02:55):
And what were you - it's so hard to imagine. And so what were hoping for at that moment? How were you hoping it would end?
Waad al-Kateab (03:03):
I really don't know, but I was seeing clearly a very big dream, a chance of a change. If we didn't take it now, we will never dream about it again. I don't know what freedom mean. I don't know what dignity means. I don't know what democracy mean, since I was born. We just were in that like [under] the Assad family, which they consider Syria as a farm. You know, we've never been like a citizen, and suddenly, you can see that this is the only chance to take this and go forward. You know, I don't know what next, I don't know how it will be, but the only dream we have that we will be in a country where we will be respectful, like feeling kind of dignity, feeling freedom of speech, and so many other things, which we were just like dreaming about.
Jen Psaki (03:50):
And through this journey of five years, you met your husband. Tell us about how you met your husband.
Waad al-Kateab (03:55):
So I met Hamza first at the protest, at Aleppo University, and at that time, there was nothing, just like normal friends. We shared so many passionate about the revolution and we were working together in so many things related to the protests. But then I met him again, the first time in 2013, after the end of 2012 after Aleppo was divided two part, but out of the regime control, when he was working as a doctor in a medical point. And I saw him again like after six months, wearing like scrubs in a place where there's some injured people and it was the first time for me. I'm seeing that in my own eyes. I've seen that on the TV or in the news, but I've never like seen a real war zone, you know?
Waad al-Kateab (04:50):
No, not a lot. Not so many people, but just like doctors and film makers with some like civilians who have been injured because the shells on their neighborhood and then like we start to be more close as friends. We build that great relationship in the hospital. As the hospital was set up, we were like start to create a big family at that time. Like all the people who live in that hospital, we need to find a way to adapt to that situation and understand what's happening. So we were so close to each other, like a real family. And lone year after that, in the end of 2014, we felt that like, this is not just a normal relationship. We want to continue our life with each other. And you know, it was weird because like a while ago, no one of us like thought about this.
Waad al-Kateab (05:39):
Everyone has his own personal life and suddenly, you feel like what I'm doing here, you know, like, this is a person who I want to die with and I could die with. So, you know, like, just go forward. Don't think about all this, like things around.
Jen Psaki (05:54):
You found love in this very difficult moment, and your husband was one of only 32 doctors, right? Who was in Aleppo and stayed there through this period of time. So you both kind of had complimentary roles of heroism, and you also had your daughter during this period of time. And that's depicted, certainly, in the film. Tell us about finding out you're pregnant and bringing your daughter into the world during this time.
Waad al-Kateab (06:23):
So to be very honest, when we like got married, we thought, we had the first conversation as any like two couples will have, you know. And we were like, oh, we, we, we're not going to bring a child into this world, you know, like we just, we are together here. We will see what would happen next. And then like three months later, we had the same conversation about maybe it's now and like, yeah, we don't know what will happen. We don't know how long we will be live here. Let's just like, start our real family here. And we decided that and I found out that I'm pregnant like one month after that. And just, you know, one of the amazing moments in the life when you just like, you forget everything before, you forget everything even about the future, you just have that feeling that I'm creating a life and you know, this baby would be like our baby, you know? Any young mom all over the world will feel the same thing. And you can see that in my eyes. When I found out and I wanted just to tell Hamza about that, just like, I don't know, one of the moments of like a dream, you know, like a Hollywood film, I don't know what it's, it's reality.
Jen Psaki (07:31):
At what point did you start to feel the tide turn against you and Aleppo?
Waad al-Kateab (07:36):
From the beginning of the revolution, we know how dangerous it is. We know how - we were aware, like the risk that we've taken, and we knew that this could be ended at any second, like with something hope or something so bad. And we've seen that in our own eyes with so many other people around us. But then, you know, like when exactly? I would say like the Russian interfere changed the whole thing.
Audio (08:07):
[music]
Waad al-Kateab (08:12):
We felt so much hope before, the regime was losing more than 80% of Syria. And we felt in so many places, we have the council, the local council in Aleppo and in every city, which has just representing the free people who are against the regime. We have so many amazing civil community, uh, organization. They were working amazing things and suddenly they see the Russian interfere. Like, I still remember the first time we heard the Russian aircraft and I can't forget that, you know, it's all something. We knew how the regime is like here, they are criminals. They do so much violence and so much crimes. But when the Russian interfered, was like totally different.
Jen Psaki (08:56):
It felt like it moved it up a level, or it was just, there was -
Waad al-Kateab (08:58):
10 levels.
Jen Psaki (08:59):
10 levels. Yeah. That's fair.
Waad al-Kateab (09:01):
And you can actually, anyone who watched the film, you can realize exactly which one is Syrian, like aircraft, the sound of that and which one is Russian aircraft.
Jen Psaki (09:11):
And you still hear that sound, you still remember that sound. And you ended up moving into the hospital, during the siege. And you also learned, as you kind of just talked about that the Russians were targeting hospitals as well. Tell us a little bit about that.
Waad al-Kateab (09:28):
So the regime was targeting hospitals even before, but you know, like the regime doesn't have that ability and the quality to, you know, to target a very specific place. They did it so many times, but usually they are like, they doing wrong, they kill other people. But you know, like not hospitals exactly. While the Russian, it was so obvious how they can like, you know, what the coordinate or the location exactly and attack that area. We knew how risky it was to live inside the hospital. But also Hamza is one of five doctors who stayed in the siege of Aleppo and in al-Quds hospital where we were, and we knew that, you know, he needed to be there 24 hours.
Waad al-Kateab (10:12):
There is no other option. And for me to stay with someone, I don't know at my house, like, I can't do this. I'm not comfortable to be alone, in case anything happened, like any bombing campaign. I was just like, I can't feel I'm alone in this place. I don't know if someone knows if I am here or not so much, like complicated and like you can't, so many things in your mind sometimes, you know. So I was like, no, I'm staying with you at the hospital. And he was like, yeah, that's better for me. Even if it's here also under arrest. But the Russian and the regime were targeting everything, you know. So yeah, the hospital more, but at the same level at the end. With also the other staff who are living in the hospital, we were in just like the only family.
Waad al-Kateab (10:57):
So like other doctors who are staying in Aleppo without their families, or their families are very close to the hospital, maybe one building next to the hospital. So we felt so many as a community there. And yeah, it was hard in so many places to think about. This is a place where it could be targeted at any second, but at the same time there was amazing people where you live with and you can feel the power and the strength all over the place.
Jen Psaki (11:22):
And so many people fled during that period of time for clearly understandable reasons. You stayed. Was it because of the community? What made you stay, you and your husband stay?
Waad al-Kateab (11:32):
I would say like the main thing because we believe in what we are doing and we believe that Hamza as a doctor can make real difference in that situation. Not just times. I know any doctor will be there will make a difference. Anyone who can do any work to support the community and support the people who are still working there. I told already like give people more like power. And as a filmmaker, you know, I believe in picture, I believe in videos, and I feel that the voice should be out and somebody says, I wasn't able to do this because of the situation. And for a while in the hospital I was filming everything happening, but I wasn't able to publish any single picture or speak with any media because the regime was the last remaining hospital. If we give them any like sign or identity about where we are, or like where is the place exactly, the Russian could get that and bomb the hospital. But at the same time I can't just let everything's happening, not filming this, and you need to capture everything, keep them, you don't know if this material would be used or not, but this should be safe, you know?
Jen Psaki (12:39):
Oh, I was just going to say, I mean, one thing that's important to note for listeners who haven't yet watched your documentary, and I certainly encourage them to, is that millions of people watched your dispatches that you put out on YouTube during this period of time at great risk. And you had to be careful, it sounds like, about what you did and didn't put out on YouTube.
Waad al-Kateab (13:00):
Exactly. You take so much responsibility in that situation because you know, like if that place was targeted, you will feel that you are the first person who should be blamed. Even if it's not, you know, like I'm not bombing this area, it's the Russian, but you just feel responsibility because you've seen like what is, and people are dying. But at the same time, you know, like if we didn't do that, I believe, you know, the only reason why people in Aleppo were saved and we are like displaced out, which is also another crime, you know. But we were out just because the world outside cared about us at that time. In the last month when the siege was so close and the Russian and Syrian regime was like, just like maybe two streets away from where we were. I believe if the people - like there were so big protest all over the world putting so much pressure on the UN, and the Security Council, on so many governments, from just civilians, normal people in Syria and all over the places asking these governments to take responsibility for the people who are still inside Syria. And I believe, you know, like if people all over the place didn't went out and shout and say what's happening, no one will care if we've been all killed. No one could even know, hear, this story.
Jen Psaki (14:18):
There's so many scenes that really will sit with people for a long time from your documentary, and one of them -and maybe as a mom - is a segment in the film where your best friends take their children outside for some fun and they end up painting the shell of a burned bus that had been hit by a barrel bomb. Tell us a little bit about that and why that was important to include.
Waad al-Kateab (14:41):
There were so many kind of these things which we trying all the time to pretend that there is normal life or it's not normal -
Jen Psaki (14:49):
For your kid.
Waad al-Kateab (14:49):
Yeah. Like to let them forget and ignore what's happening. And that day was like kind of ceasefire for a couple of hours. And Salem who came up with this idea, Salem is one of the great activists in the city. He has three children with his wife Afraa, she's also a teacher, and you know, this family give me an example for how people should be. And they were like kind of my heroes, you know, and Salem like, let's have all the children in the neighborhood and bring them and have fun together. And I brought Sama also, you know, and she was like playing with them and they painted this bus. It gives them really like for a while we forget where we are and what's happening. And as you're watching this, you almost forget until you will hear Nia's voice saying, you know, like it's a cluster bomb and you will remember again that where are you exactly? If you look at the children faces, you will not realize anything happening around apart of like happiness and laughter and so many joy. But then when you look at the picture from like farther away, you'll see it's a burned bus. There's a building next to that bus which totally collapse and just, you know, like normal people wants to live normal life
Jen Psaki (16:07):
At another point, you and Hamza drive with Sama to Turkey to visit a sick relative and while you're there, you hear that regime forces are close to capturing the road back to Aleppo. Most people would hear that, including myself, and think there's no way I'm going back. but you went back. Why?
Waad al-Kateab (16:26):
We were thinking about, we hope that there is a one way to get back.
Jen Psaki (16:30):
Yeah. And it was difficult to get back. You had to really go through a journey to do that.
Waad al-Kateab (16:34):
Yeah. We walked for three hours in fields just to be not on the normal road because we don't know where the regime soldiers exactly. But you know like there was so much, I don't know how to explain this, but, yeah, me Hamza and Sama were together out. But imagine that for any reason, you know, like someone was inside and me and Hamza was outside, for us this was the story, you know, like all the people who we lived with them for five years, the people who we like went with them and so much like tough situation and also great situation. Salem, Afraa, and their kids, for us, they were like one family. We can't just, you know, like ignore everything is happening inside and stay there and see like okay, it's hard to go. And it was, yeah, but I should just stay and you know, because the same reason which I mentioned before, Hamza is not just a normal person.
Waad al-Kateab (17:30):
He's a doctor. He's a manager of that hospital. So imagine the emotion that could the whole staff feel if their manager, the person who's responsible for them, he just like left them because it's hard. Everyone knows that, you know, everyone, like we witnessed so many difficult places and situations and we need to take that hard decision in one place where could have ended up with us in something so bad. But like the end, you know, like we were safe. We've been inside. And if you just look at my face, and people's face when they were carrying Sama in that scene, you know, you can feel like the whole situation, just, just people, just like powerful, just strength, just hope. And this is why, the only thing we could do in that situation.
Jen Psaki (18:18):
The human spirit's amazing. It really runs through your documentary. And by the time the siege was coming to an end, your husband was running the last hospital in Aleppo and you had to make a decision at some point to leave. How did you make that decision?
Waad al-Kateab (18:33):
So unfortunately, and fortunately, we didn't take that decision. It was a decision taken by the UN, the Russian and the Saudi regime, or some negotiation between the Turkish government, the US government and so many other parties, I would say. They decided in the middle of the summer, they decided that the only way to save the people who are still inside the Aleppo is to displace them. And the Russians and the Assad regime were, you know, like seizing this area and they wanted to kill everyone inside and they wanted to do that to take over the city. So they just gave them the city, in like they had them actually to take over the place, and they displaced us and make us a refugee out of our country.
Waad al-Kateab (19:27):
So it wasn't our decision, but we had no other option but to leave. A few stayed, like it's 100%, they will come and they will kill you. And you know, if death in some places was hard and that situation specifically, it's one of the best thing could you ever have, because we know how the Assad regime and the Russian forces, we know how many people have been tortured to death because they were arrested by these forces. So you know, just like leave and be alive there, try to get all this material to be out, you know, try to protect everyone around. The staff, the people who were injured and they were living in some hospital because they are just patients. You just need to find a way to, you know, like control all that and be also controlling yourself because you are in a position which, you know, no one [inaudible]
Audio (20:30):
[music]
Waad al-Kateab (20:36):
So now we live in the UK. We are really happy and comfortable in London. It's a great place to be at. But at the same time, you know, like we all the time just thinking about when we can be back to Aleppo. We are like, one of the luckiest families who were able like to get out from Aleppo to Idlib. Idlib mow is the last area out of the regime control where now the massive attacks are happening by the Russian and Assad regime again. And then we were lucky enough to get to Turkey and then we were very lucky to get from Turkey to London to claim asylum there. And now we have the right to stay there in very legal way. It's so many good things and you'll also sometimes need to focus on that. Was it a new life? To see myself, was able also to do the film, and make that accessible for so many people to watch the story and understand what's happening.
Waad al-Kateab (21:37):
That's something I should be happy about and I'm happy of course. But at the same time, to look back to your country, about what's happening, the story which happened with me three years ago, it's still happening today. Exactly. And even now it's worse. Just yesterday, there's so many pictures coming out from inside Syria, from Idlib, where there's like thousands of cars full of children and families and they were just trying to escape from this area to another, while the regime and the Russians attacking this area and trying to take over this place. So I really just hope that I can focus now more about the voice of these people, how we can make, not just, you know, celebrities and awards and achievements for the films, but also being, you know, here today in DC, we had so many great meetings yesterday in the Congress. I know it's not enough and I hope it will change something even if I believe that it could not, but we need to push as much as we can to make people attention go to this area, go to these people and the least we can do, you know, is just like make them die not in silence, you know?
Jen Psaki (22:46):
What do you wish - I know you are a mother and a filmmaker and you're making it accessible, as you said, on what's going on in Syria continues to be, and it's important you raise that. What do you wish the UN or the United States was doing? What are they not seeing and what should they be doing?
Waad al-Kateab (23:07):
They see nothing. They are doing nothing, and this is accurate. Yeah. This is so clear for everyone. The Syrian people for the whole nine years, we felt all the time and we still feeling that we've been abandoned from these like people who should be responsible for this. The UN, one way or another. they were the reason why all these people were displaced from so many cities, and they are now all in Idlib as they said, like, you know, safe corridors, safe place now and now they are just watching the Russian - how they kill people every day, and they do nothing. The US government - the only reason why Russia is in Syria is because of the USA. And just, you know, you can't look at this world in now 2020, we know there's big massacres happening in this world, in this way.
Waad al-Kateab (23:59):
This should be a shame for every person in this world. Like, I don't know really, but there's so much to do. There is so much even to change. And if they want to change that, it should take them three seconds to do this. They've done it before with ISIS, and ISIS is now almost like clear in Syria. They did it before with Baghdadi. They did it with so many things. What the previous administration here in the US did, they just left us to death, and now they are still doing the same. And we still hope and we have believed that if this universe was right in one reason or another, these massacres should stop now.
Jen Psaki (24:47):
It's remarkable that you still, I feel your optimism about the future -
Waad al-Kateab (24:50):
I'm not optimistic. I'm just, I can't believe -
Jen Psaki (24:55):
You can't believe, having seen what you have seen, that there's been nothing done.
Waad al-Kateab (25:00):
Yeah, exactly.
Jen Psaki (25:01):
And do you have hope that it could change? Or how your view changed over time on that?
Waad al-Kateab (25:07):
You know, the film now gives me so much hope in this. Specifically when I'm seeing so many audience. You know, the American people show me amazing reaction for the film, and so many people, they were coming to me and say the same things. So many people in tears, they were coming and say like, we are sorry. We are so - I heard this word here in the US so many times. We are sorry that we allowed that to happen. And I'm still have faith in these people. You know, and I'm sure this can't last forever. Whatever the regime done, whatever. I can't believe that one day this Assad regime and Russian regime could just let out of this without accountability and without justice, and we are trying to do everything we can do.
Waad al-Kateab (25:54):
Not just me, all the Syrian people. So many great activists all over the world, not just Syrian. We are all trying to push forward for this. And because of that great reaction that we have here in the USA and in so many other countries, we launched our impact campaign. It's called Action for Sama. And our main message, unfortunately, you know, just simple as it is. Like it's about stop bombing hospitals. And you can see that in the film in very clear way. We have so much evidence about how the Russian and the regime were like attacking hospitals in very systematic way. And I encourage everyone who watched the film or who would watch the phone to go to this website, www.actionforsama.com, and join our campaign to support the people who are still in Syria, to be in solidarity with them, to try to make any difference in this world and the Syria situation.
Jen Psaki (26:48):
Well, thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for making your film and for your bravery. I encourage everybody listening to watch it. And good luck with the award season.
Waad al-Kateab (26:59):
Thanks. Thank you.
Jen Psaki (27:04):
Thanks for listening to The World Unpacked, which is produced by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. You can find us on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and to subscribe, you can find us at worldunpacked.com. Don't forget to rate the show. It helps other people find us. Our audio engineer is Tim Martin and our executive producer is Lauren Dueck.